SEAL Book Club

[Bee]

Okay so I didn't read any of the stories but I read your posts about them so I read Ribbons because I know the ribbon fairy tale and oh my god there's so much going on in this story, I had no idea from your comments that the entire thing is about being trans??

I didn't want to spoil it 8O

[Bee]

The Clockwork Penguin Dreamed of Stars by Caroline M. Yoachim
Eh. It was okay. I would’ve rather have followed the penguin into the stars.

This could be a Pixar film, well, no, maybe Dreamworks Animation.

No, but, robot penguins fighting its programming to answer a call from Saturn and taking off in a space shuttle could definitely be an animated movie. I don't think you could end it the way it did, though. Or maybe you could. All the other clockwork animals in the zoo setting off in their own space shuttles to go after the penguin could be perfect sequel bait.

I'm pitching it now.

IKR

It could've been super cute but instead it was just okay

[thiskurt]

Okay, the war. The war is given a lot less attention so I'm not entirely sure what it is. It could be a lot of things. I don't think it's linked to masculinity or manhood - the Thursday lover is a woman with a ribbon and is conscripted, and the Procurer is a war vet and a woman.

I think, tentatively, that the war is a metaphor for all the external strife and injustice and suffering in the world, wrapped into one package. Because of this part:

Besides, people are getting blown up at the border. The world is burning and I’m thinking about a ribbon? What a selfish, worthless son of a bitch.

He asks himself: Who do you think you are that you can reject this?

Who do you think you are that you can escape?

I think this is why he doesn't try to remove the ribbon until the end, as well, because he's been conscripted. He's in the war, now; he's hit rock bottom, so losing his head by removing the ribbon won't really lose him anything else any more.

And then he's fine.

Yeah, the suffering in the world or like Other People's Struggles maybe? There's this recurring phrase Jan uses "other people’s curses" and the word "curse" in general that I noticed when I was skimming it again.

"Jan/You know better than to ask after other people's curses." Occurs twice, first when he's asking himself about the birdman and second near the end when the final client asks Jan about why he won't run from the War.

And earlier when he asks himself why he feels that he is pulled towards the battlefield he calls it "a weakness perhaps, a curse."

There's two more mentions of the word curse when he's talking about the river. 1) "or not have children at all, spare them and the world a curse" 2) when talking about either the animals or the feathers/skin they shed floating down the river and "whoever finds one will be forever cursed."

There's also something interesting about the use of the word scar. Jan's first lover kisses the scars on his chest, which are presumably from breast a reduction surgery, and then immediately asks if he has been conscripted yet. And then the next thing that happens is that the lover says the following:

The lover tells him the stories of his own scars then, how he got some of them on the battlefield and others in the dark wooded area on our northern border where witches and snakes make your wishes come true in return for a bit of finger or a first-born child.

So I think the War is the suffering in the world, but I don't think it's an external thing separate from Jan, even if he thinks it is, because I think the War is just everyone's personal struggles represented as one big battlefield.

I think "other people's curse" is their personal struggles that's why it's mentioned in relation to the war and why him being drawn to the battlefield is "perhaps a curse", the battlefield is facing your "curse" and fighting your personal battle.

That's why it goes from Jan's surgery scars to the lover talking about the scars he got from the battlefield. They're the same thing. Scars are marks left from the battlefield, from your personal struggle/curse. Jan's literal surgery scars represent his emotional scars and the lover's battle scars represent his.

Maybe another reason the green ribbon metaphor was used as a symbol of womanhood is that in the story the ribbon could be described as a curse and to Jan in a way this feels like his personal curse.

And as for:

The world is burning and I’m thinking about a ribbon?

Don't most people feel like their personal struggles pale in comparison to that of the rest of the world?

Transforming into animals to dodge the draft is even harder to pinpoint. I have some tentative thoughts that maybe it's about social camoflage, when you're pretending to be someone you aren't in order to "fit in" and not cause any waves and protect yourself. Which, if so, makes Jan considering it a metaphor for considering "going back in the closet".

Social camouflage makes sense, as does "going back in the closet".

I think this is why he doesn't try to remove the ribbon until the end, as well, because he's been conscripted. He's in the war, now; he's hit rock bottom, so losing his head by removing the ribbon won't really lose him anything else any more.

This part I see a bit differently, I don't think he takes of the ribbon because he's hit rock bottom and has nothing to lose because he's joined the war.

If the War is your personal struggle then being drafted into the war is I guess being forced to face your personal battle and then dodging the draft by turning into an animal is avoiding facing your personal struggle by pretending to be something your not.

The bargain Jan wanted too make with the witch in the woods was for him to not have the ribbon for a year, so to pretend he was never trans, but just a cis man. But he is denied this bargain because:

then the witch could have his heart, his liver, his bones, whatever other gory piece of him she desired. But she felt sorry for him and called it off at the last minute. She said, your head might still roll off, eventually, ribbon or not. You’ll only be giving me things and getting so very little in return.

He wants to pretend he never had a ribbon, like others pretend to be an animal, but it would not actually change anything, they would be giving up their body (heart, liver, bones) which I think means who they are deep down and get nothing in return.

And then at the end of the story:

He looks at his ribbon, lifts his hand to touch its length. Then he holds one end between forefinger and thumb and pulls and pulls until the ribbon gives and the knot comes undone. He tugs once more and feels the fabric slide silky over his skin and then he waits for the other sensation, the rip, the tilt, but the ribbon simply comes away, and it’s fine. Nothing happens. It’s fine.

I think he takes off the ribbon at the end of the story, the same time as he's drafted and goes to war, because the War is a metaphor for people's struggles and his struggle was with his ribbon, ie a marker of womanhood from his past, because he's ready to face it now, to go onto the battlefield.

He's no longer wanting to pretend he never had a ribbon, he's coming to terms with his ribbon and choosing to take it over regardless of the consequences even if he dies, but when he does he doesn't die, nothing happens, it's fine.

[InspectorCaracal]

So I think the War is the suffering in the world, but I don't think it's an external thing separate from Jan, even if he thinks it is, because I think the War is just everyone's personal struggles represented as one big battlefield.

I think that's a valid interpretation, but I was thinking about it more as representing systemic injustice and widespread crises. To reference an extremely trite and cliche example that I despise as an example: a mother insisting her child finish their dinner because there are people starving in [insert country here]. There are People Suffering because of Systemic Injustice, don't complain about how you don't like what's on your plate/the gender you were born with.

The recurring theme of curses is a good observation - probably one for the metaphorical giant board of strings connecting quotes I mentioned, lol. I'd say I agree with the curses as being people's individual struggles and difficulties, but I think that's separate from the war. There's something to pull out there about how both personal difficulties and social difficulties cause scars and suffering just the same as each other, though, especially in light of the "I can't complain about a ribbon when people are starving in China" bit.

I think this is why he doesn't try to remove the ribbon until the end, as well, because he's been conscripted. He's in the war, now; he's hit rock bottom, so losing his head by removing the ribbon won't really lose him anything else any more.

This part I see a bit differently, I don't think he takes of the ribbon because he's hit rock bottom and has nothing to lose because he's joined the war.

If the War is your personal struggle then being drafted into the war is I guess being forced to face your personal battle and then dodging the draft by turning into an animal is avoiding facing your personal struggle by pretending to be something your not.

Yeah, I think our differences in interpreting that bit are rooted in us seeing The War as different things.

The bargain Jan wanted too make with the witch in the woods was for him to not have the ribbon for a year, so to pretend he was never trans, but just a cis man. But he is denied this bargain because:

then the witch could have his heart, his liver, his bones, whatever other gory piece of him she desired. But she felt sorry for him and called it off at the last minute. She said, your head might still roll off, eventually, ribbon or not. You’ll only be giving me things and getting so very little in return.

He wants to pretend he never had a ribbon, like others pretend to be an animal, but it would not actually change anything, they would be giving up their body (heart, liver, bones) which I think means who they are deep down and get nothing in return.

I... can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's because he was trying to "pretend he was never trans". I think it's more like... damn, gotta think about how to phrase this.

He wants to get rid of the ribbon, right? That's his goal. He wants to stop having this permanent marker of "being a woman" so he can feel comfortable being a man - basically, fully transition. You can think of it as a metaphor for HRT if you want, although I think that's a too-literal metaphor.

The deal he's trying to make with the witch is for having this for only one year. Not because he wants to pretend he never had the ribbon, but because he wants to pretend he removed the ribbon. He thinks a temporary illusion of freedom before going back to the way it was is the best he can get, because he thinks the alternative to the illusion is death.

So he'd really not be getting anything, and even if he doesn't recognize it, the witch does.

I think he takes off the ribbon at the end of the story, the same time as he's drafted and goes to war, because the War is a metaphor for people's struggles and his struggle was with his ribbon, ie a marker of womanhood from his past, because he's ready to face it now, to go onto the battlefield.

He's no longer wanting to pretend he never had a ribbon, he's coming to terms with his ribbon and choosing to take it over regardless of the consequences even if he dies, but when he does he doesn't die, nothing happens, it's fine.

Hmmm. I could see that. I dunno, though - the war is represented throughout the whole story as pretty nightmareish and something that only causes loss, not something that can be overcome. Like the attitude of the big guy war vet who suggests Jan try taking the ribbon off and who tells him to run away.

And yeah, I can definitely see how it could be a moment of acceptance instead of a moment of... abandon? Not sure that's the right word. I think that's another point I wanna chew on for a while.

[InspectorCaracal]

The Husband Stitch was my first contact with the ribbon story, so it’s very firmly set in my mind as a womanhood thing

THS is fantastic but pretty intense and almost traumatic but really worth it anyway

Oh, interesting! I just skimmed it but I'm pretty sure this is referencing the same ribbon story, which is particularly interesting because tbh there's nothing really in the original story/stories to link the ribbon to womanhood specifically.

***edit: yep got to the end and it's 100% the same story

***edit 2: comparing the three stories in particular is super interesting, because the original story is about the morbid fascination with the unknown, THS is about feminine bodily agency, and Ribbons is about identity and external labelling

READ IT PROPERLY DAMMIT BE RESPECTFUL >:(

no for real THS is about so much more than bodily agency (though of course that's also a central theme), and it legit kept me up for weeks afterwards. I couldn't even look outside at night because of the runaway murderer ;-;

ANYWAY yeah

i was gonna but i already could tell from like the first two paragraphs that it's full of triggers but i wanted to at least get the gist of what the story was like without traumatizing myself,,,

[thiskurt]

Side note, I was thinking of announcing the next batch of stories tomorrow or wednesday, but switching to having this be bi-weekly or whatever the right word is for every other week.

[InspectorCaracal]

Side note, I was thinking of announcing the next batch of stories tomorrow or wednesday, but switching to having this be bi-weekly or whatever the right word is for every other week.

yeah it's biweekly

biweekly means both "every other week" and also "twice a week" which is one of the best examples of how sometimes language is stupid imo lol

also that sounds good to me, gives me time to read the other stories

[InspectorCaracal]

The Clockwork Penguin Dreamed of Stars by Caroline M. Yoachim
Eh. It was okay. I would’ve rather have followed the penguin into the stars.

This could be a Pixar film, well, no, maybe Dreamworks Animation.

No, but, robot penguins fighting its programming to answer a call from Saturn and taking off in a space shuttle could definitely be an animated movie. I don't think you could end it the way it did, though. Or maybe you could. All the other clockwork animals in the zoo setting off in their own space shuttles to go after the penguin could be perfect sequel bait.

I'm pitching it now.

IKR

It could've been super cute but instead it was just okay

I just read this one and... yeah. It's okay. It's a vignette without a point. A "what if?" that doesn't actually try to answer any part of the question.

hashtag wall-e did it better

[Bee]

Oh, interesting! I just skimmed it but I'm pretty sure this is referencing the same ribbon story, which is particularly interesting because tbh there's nothing really in the original story/stories to link the ribbon to womanhood specifically.

***edit: yep got to the end and it's 100% the same story

***edit 2: comparing the three stories in particular is super interesting, because the original story is about the morbid fascination with the unknown, THS is about feminine bodily agency, and Ribbons is about identity and external labelling

READ IT PROPERLY DAMMIT BE RESPECTFUL >:(

no for real THS is about so much more than bodily agency (though of course that's also a central theme), and it legit kept me up for weeks afterwards. I couldn't even look outside at night because of the runaway murderer ;-;

ANYWAY yeah

i was gonna but i already could tell from like the first two paragraphs that it's full of triggers but i wanted to at least get the gist of what the story was like without traumatizing myself,,,

No that’s fair

[thiskurt]

*slaps forehead*

I just remembered why I knew the green ribbon story, because I haven't actually read it, but it shows up in The Wolf Among Us, the Telltale games adaptation of the Fables comic book, it bugged me this whole time.